Teen angst is supposed to end when you stop being a teenager

[brigdh]

God, why do I do these things to myself? AIM is supposed to be for entertaining diversions while I work, not epic chats with high school friends who make me alternately furious and upset while in public. Also, why am I incapable of ever coming out and saying anything directly? I hate that I dance around everything, I watch myself do it and I hate it because I know how obvious and blatant it is and that if I really didn't want to talk about it I am perfectly capable of changing the topic, but I do it anyway, waiting for someone to notice.


brigdh = Patti (whether that should be spelled with a y or i involves years of backstory) = me
gabe00ayg = Anna, a high school friend
Shannon = the third of our group


[19:33] gabe00ayg: yea... it really was... and i cant say that i have really any better memories than when it was just us 3 you know?
[19:34] gabe00ayg: and being here in toledo i think about it a lot just because although you have friends from college... they dont seem to be as good as friends as those that you have had in high school you know???
[19:34] gabe00ayg: things just seem different
[19:35] brigdh: Oh. Well, that's sad.
[19:35] gabe00ayg: i know
[19:35] gabe00ayg: i mean i have a few really good friends here
[19:35] gabe00ayg: but nothing like it was in high school
[19:36] gabe00ayg: no one could ever take you or shannons place... i know that might sound weird... but i dont know a better way to put it
[19:37] brigdh: No, it's alright. Thank you; that makes me feel very special. I think that people spend *so* much time together in high school- you know, eight hours a day, five days a week, just all the time, constantly with the same people, and that you never really get quite that same obsessive amounts of time later in life.
[19:39] gabe00ayg: yea i can see that.... but i also think since its such an impressionable age too... that you are learning so much and different ways and growing up that you go through harder stuff at that age with only those people and but when you are in college you dont do that you know??? so you dont get that extra part of the relationship
[19:39] gabe00ayg: you know what i am saying?
[19:40] brigdh: Yeah, I see your point. But I think people are always changing, and getting new impressions.
[19:41] gabe00ayg: right but harder experiences than those that one goes through in high school???
[19:42] brigdh: Well, maybe not for everyone. I feel like I had to go through stuff that's just as important since, and I think I have more in the future.
[19:44] gabe00ayg: yea... idk i think that there is just something about high school that you cant get any where else... i mean i have never had a closer relationship with anyone at college than that of you and shannon you know??? maybe because there are so many people you just dont spend it with that person or maybe its because i went to college with ben and john and stuff... idk its just weird i guess
[19:44] gabe00ayg: and quite sad
[19:47] brigdh: No, I wouldn't say sad. I mean, I think it's good for you to know who the important people in your life are, and what the special times were for you. And I think high school is an important time for everyone.
[19:47] gabe00ayg: yea
[19:47] gabe00ayg: idk... i guess i just REALLY miss knowing that you guys were right down the street and i miss the fun times
[19:47] gabe00ayg: no one i have met here is like that really
[19:48] gabe00ayg: well there is one girl and i am close to her... but she went back home to live and i barely get to see her anymore
[19:48] gabe00ayg: :(
[19:48] gabe00ayg: i think i was just made to meet people but not have GOOD friends
[19:49] brigdh: Aww, honey. *hugs*
[19:49] brigdh: It is hard to meet people.
[19:49] gabe00ayg: yea your telling me
[19:49] gabe00ayg: lol
[19:50] gabe00ayg: cause all the ones that i have met girl wise... all leave
[19:50] gabe00ayg: :(
[19:50] gabe00ayg: so its pointless to meet anyone anymore
[19:51] brigdh: Oh, don't feel that way. Of course some people have to leave because of other events, but that doesn't mean its inevitable, or that its your fault.
[19:51] gabe00ayg: patti... ever since i have left high school... i cant hold on to a GOOD friend... cause just as we become basically inseperatable... they have to leave
[19:51] gabe00ayg: ummm that sounds weird
[19:51] gabe00ayg: lol
[19:52] gabe00ayg: but anyway i think you know what i mean
[19:52] gabe00ayg: and its just annoying
[19:52] gabe00ayg: so there are a lot of times where i just miss you guys... and wish there was something more that we could do like meet once a month or something... but thats not going to happen
[19:52] gabe00ayg: grrr
[19:52] gabe00ayg: lol
[19:52] brigdh: No, I know what you mean, it's okay.
[19:53] brigdh: But it's not like that didn't happen in high school too. I mean, you, Shannon and I were together, but there were plenty of other people who had to transfer or move.
[19:54] gabe00ayg: yea but thats the thing that sucked... we were always together you know??? EVERYTHING was all about us 3... we had other friends... but we were always together you know???? i think sometimes even i took it for granted...
[19:54] gabe00ayg: and the best thing is we only fought like once in the 4 years
[19:56] brigdh: It was nice. I really did like always having people to count on to hang out with. But I think you have a better view on it than I do.
[19:57] gabe00ayg: y do you say that?
[19:58] brigdh: Well, I dunno. It doesn't matter. It's not really important anymore, and I don't want to make you feel differently about things that are over, anyway.
[19:59] gabe00ayg: as in shannon and i were closer?
[20:00] brigdh: Yeah, that's true. I never felt as though I could say as much as you two did to each other.
[20:01] gabe00ayg: but you are the one that help make the group patti
[20:01] gabe00ayg: you were always welcome
[20:01] gabe00ayg: even now when shannon and i are together we ask eachother if either have talked to you or heard from you
[20:01] gabe00ayg: and say how much we miss it being us 3
[20:02] brigdh: Thank you, that means a lot to me.
[20:02] gabe00ayg: well its the truth
[20:03] gabe00ayg: :)
[20:03] gabe00ayg: i mean we ALWAYS talk about you and old times patti...
[20:05] brigdh: That's nice to hear. I'm glad I mean so much to you two.
[20:05] gabe00ayg: u didnt know that patti???
[20:05] gabe00ayg: truthfully?
[20:07] gabe00ayg: ??
[20:08] brigdh: I think we seemed closer to you than we did to me, but it's not necessarily a bad thing that you take a better view of it.
[20:08] gabe00ayg: lol what?
[20:08] gabe00ayg: totally didnt get that one
[20:09] brigdh: I mean, it wasn't exactly like that to me. But I'm glad it meant so much to you.
[20:10] gabe00ayg: what was it for you then?
[20:10] gabe00ayg: cause that sucks
[20:11] brigdh: It didn't suck. I was very glad to know you, and to be friends with you. I just didn't feel I could tell you everything.
[20:11] gabe00ayg: just me or me and shannon?
[20:12] brigdh: Oh, both.
[20:12] gabe00ayg: patti :(
[20:12] gabe00ayg: :^O
[20:12] gabe00ayg: :-<
[20:12] gabe00ayg: :-S
[20:12] brigdh: I hope you don't feel hurt; I didn't mean it that way.
[20:13] gabe00ayg: its ok patti... its just sad thats all... i thought that were u able to tell us most things
[20:13] gabe00ayg: im sorry that i wasnt there for you more
[20:14] gabe00ayg: :(
[20:15] brigdh: Please don't be upset. I don't blame you for it. I just knew there were somethings neither of you wanted to know, so I didn't talk about them. But I never resented you for it or anything.
[20:15] gabe00ayg: what do you mean that i would never want to know??? like what?
[20:16] gabe00ayg: or do you not want to say?
[20:17] brigdh: Well. It's just that. I mean, you and Shannon still haven't figured out that I'm gay, have you?
[20:17] gabe00ayg: .... u want my honest answer?
[20:17] brigdh: Sure
[20:19] gabe00ayg: i always thought that you might have been cause there were little signs....
[20:19] gabe00ayg: but i mean i never would say anything
[20:20] brigdh: If you suspected, why would you keep doing things like calling stupid stuff 'gay', when I told you it bothered me a thousand times, or saying to me that lesbians shouldn't be able to adopt children, or when we watched The Color Purple in religion class junior year, saying that the sight of the two girls in the movie kissing made you want to puke, and covering your eyes?
[20:22] gabe00ayg: well patti... those were the signs that made me think it... but i was also quite more immature than i am now you know
[20:22] brigdh: I suppose so.
[20:24] gabe00ayg: dont you dare be upset with me now patti
[20:24] gabe00ayg: i really am
[20:24] gabe00ayg: im sry
[20:24] gabe00ayg: but didnt you think that maybe if you told me i would have said been more open to it????
[20:24] gabe00ayg: i would have NEVER cast you out
[20:24] brigdh: I'm not upset. I said I didn't hold it against you.
[20:24] gabe00ayg: yea but i would have still been there if i knew
[20:24] brigdh: I think it's easy to say that now. You know, Shannon once told me, word for word, that she could never be friends with a gay person?
[20:25] gabe00ayg: i just thought that you were saying stop because you thought it was mean
[20:25] gabe00ayg: well that was shannon .... not me
[20:25] gabe00ayg: i have fam that is gay
[20:25] gabe00ayg: and i love them to death
[20:25] gabe00ayg: and i thought of you and shannon as my fam cause mine is so fucked up
[20:25] gabe00ayg: hence my mom
[20:25] gabe00ayg: lol
[20:26] gabe00ayg: but i have fam that is... i wouldnt have thought it was bad... i would have been fine with you and would have kept it a secret... again i just thought that you always told me to stop because you thought it was mean... just like spanking a child you told me was mean
[20:26] gabe00ayg: so i mean .... i didnt think to much about it cause i figured you would tell me ...
[20:26] gabe00ayg: but i did think about it a few times
[20:27] gabe00ayg: make sense?
[20:27] gabe00ayg: lol
[20:29] brigdh: It was mean. I would have been upset with it even if I was the straightest person on earth. But look- if you can't see why it might be good to not constantly insult gay people, regardless of whether you were doing it in front of a gay person or not, why would you have been motivated to act differently if you'd know? Why do you even think I would have wanted you to keep it a secret? The only people who I cared who knew were you and Shannon, because I wanted to be able to count on still having close friends. Anyone else, I wouldn't have minded what they did.
[20:31] gabe00ayg: patti you still would have been my close friend because i loved the times that we had... i litterally thought of you and shannon as my family, i have never turned someone away as being my friend because of anything... i surely wouldnt have done it for you... in fact freshman year of college one of my closest g/f here was gay...
[20:32] gabe00ayg: in fact i prob would have asked for details if you had done anything
[20:32] gabe00ayg: lol cause i am curious
[20:33] gabe00ayg: but patti i still luv ya... and i hope that you can tell me more stuff.... ok???
[20:34] gabe00ayg: im interested to know what else there was
[20:34] gabe00ayg: but i have to be going i am in an on campus lab
[20:34] gabe00ayg: :(
[20:34] gabe00ayg: but call me sometime to chat
[20:34] gabe00ayg: later hun...
[20:34] brigdh: Alright. It was nice to talk to you!
[20:34] gabe00ayg: lots of luv
[20:34] gabe00ayg: ditto
[20:34] brigdh: Bye!

...I think it makes me a terrible person if I don't believe her, but, well, apparently I am a terrible person.

Comments

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

You are not a terrible person, and furthermore, you probably have a better idea than she does of how she would actually have reacted at the time. She doesn't sound like someone who's exactly strong on the self-knowledge thing, and she would only have been less strong at it back then.

But you know? In a way, I feel sorry for her. There are people I knew in high school whom I still respect, but really, I can't think of much that would be sadder than having high school turn out to be the very pinnacle of your social life.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

You know, at time of typing it, I believed it was true that I wasn't upset, but now I am furious. How can anyone say "Gee, I thought it was strange that you were upset when I was a homophobic bitch, but the love and concern I swear I feel for you never inspired me to stop acting homophobic"? How do those words even come out of your mouth without being able to see how nonsensical you're being? Grr, argh, etc.

Yes. Most of the beginning of this consists of my attempts to sound sympathetic without agreeing.

[chiasmus.livejournal.com]

I still haven't come out to my high school friends -- and I consider them close to me, relatively speaking. It's just hard to when one of them says something like 'all gays should burn' and means it. (Granted, the other two are quite the opposite and whacked the other one for saying that, but still. News gets around.)

...so no, I don't think you're a terrible person for not believing her.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm not at all still close to these people- this is the first time I've talked to her since June, and having only five months between conversations is better than we usually do- but it can be hard to trust people who've said things like that. Even if they no longer have any hold on you.

Well, thank you.

[threewalls]

I would also be a terrible person, I guess, because that many spelling errors/net speak? would make me less likely to trust someone. The insistence your gayness would have been kept secret, despite you saying that you wouldn't have cared what most people would have thought would also make me wary-- alongside all the unconscious homophobic things you mentioned.

I'm only friends with one person I knew in high school, and I only became good friends with her at college. Perhaps it's terrible, but I don't miss the people I went to high school with at all. I've made my good friends in college and online during college.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Ha. Good to know that I'm not the only person who hates excessive net speak. I know it's just an IM and all, but still. It doesn't take that much longer to type in complete sentences.

The few people I miss are not the people involved in this conversation. Which makes it a bit awkward to be told how important and missed I am, but that just makes me feel sorry for her.

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

I really, really don't think you're a terrible person. I mean, you *know* her. You have good reason not to believe her.

*Hugs you*

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you. *hugs*

I mean, I didn't really expect her to sign off abruptly (though I would have laughed if she had), but I do think she is overestimating her openness. If I had told her in high school, I expect I would have gotten the same "we're still close" speech, and then I simply would have stopped getting invitations to sleep over. Or hang out. Or hear secrets. And then it would have turned into the sort of thing where if you walk up, everyone stops talking, or people just happened to forget to save a seat at the table. Which is why I never came out to them, but I truly didn't resent it terribly; I always knew I was making that sort of deal-with-the-devil bargain, that I could keep my place in the clique as long as I kept certain secrets.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Duuuuuude! You came out on AIM!

Wow, that was classic drama. Thank you for sharing!

Seriously, though, I feel bad for Anna thinking her best days were back in high school, and for suddenly discovering that you didn't feel as close to her as she did to you... but give me a break. You had really good reasons for not feeling as close then, and hello, it doesn't sound like anything's really changed now. That was totally a "some of my best friends are black gay!" moment.

Now, she may learn from that and end up not being homophobic at all, but it sure doesn't sound like she'd there right now-- which is when you, now, have to deal with her.

On a side note, I pity people whose best friends were in high school. I had really close friends as a child, and then I never re-captured that until I was an adult. You are lucky that the best years of your life haven't alreayd happened-- and of course you can have closer friends now that you know more people who aren't homophobes! Argh! (That was an "argh!" on your behalf.)

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Ha! Well, I'm glad it was amusing and not emo. And thank you for arghs on my behalf!

I particularly enjoyed her "Well, you know how immature I was back then" response, because, like, that makes it okay?

It's got to be depressing to think that your whole future life is going to be downhill. I feel so sorry for people who insist that high school was the best there was, because it seems to me like they're refusing to believe that good things are still possible.

[pineapplechild.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're a terrible person at all. As someone else pointed out, the empasis on keeping teh gay a secret is rather telling. (and the excessive abuse of grammer and spelling is, too.)

Being in high school myself, I can only hope that the drama ends someday. Personally, I know I've met some people in high school that I'm probubly not going to forget, just because I was such a little closed off, cold, stuck up thing in grade school, and you'd hope that you remember the people who managed to socialize you. (somewhat. I still show affection like a third-grader, but hey. I blame the llamas.)

Of corse, I might look back on high school going "what did I think I was doing?!"

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

High school is such a closed, hothouse environment that I think drama is inevitable, but it does end. And you can get very good friends out of it! I definetly could name people I wish I saw more often (not any of the people involved in this conversation, but still, good friends exist).

Hee. I'm sure everyone has something they regret.

[animadri.livejournal.com]

Oh honey, you could never be that. Never! I don't blame you for not believing her. She just seemed to be saying what she thought you wanted to hear. Trust your gut, sweetie. She's given you no reason to believe that she would have reacted any differently than you expected.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Aw, thank you. I'm glad it seems that way to other people, too.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

Thanks, and the same to you- the further away I get from Hartley, the more I'm amazed that anyone survived it.

[kohakutenshi.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm sure people suspect it about me. Especially my mom. As such, she doesn't speak ill of gay people THAT often anymore. It's rare. She's even asked me if I am, but I say no, because I don't want her to feel like a failure.

But back in High School...damn. I couldn't trust my friends to attentively listen to my problems, let alone those secrets I didn't realize fully until the day of graduation. It clicked when I was watching my best friend fall asleep on the bus going to Project Graduation and I just thought, "OMG all this time I've been GAY."

*hugs* You could never be a terrible person~! I think you should trust your instincts. I mean, she doesn't sound that mature now either. And the whole thing reads like a fifteen year old's mindless drabbling. >.<

*cuddles*

But hey, think of where some of these people are today. My High School head cheerleader is now a mom of three children (youngest one is two?) and we only graduated in 1999. XD Ah, High School. Full of drama...~!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I think it's awful your mom would feel like a failure if she knew you were gay.

Thank you. But yeah; no matter what she says, I'm not convinced it would have been a good idea to come out in high school.

Man, I know! Earlier in the conversation she told me about how her boyfriend proposed to her. It is so weird to me.

[vom-marlowe.livejournal.com]

If she knew (and it sounds like she did) then maybe she was knowingly playing those games. I don't know her, but I did know some highschoolers who played that game. Making racist jokes around people who weren't that color, but had friends who were, for instance, just to get a rise out them--the 'hey I'm just kidding around' game. Maybe it was her way, at the time, of telling you to stay in the closet. Does that sound harsh? I don't know, but that's my gut instinct.

I do know that in my highschool, suspected gays received very graphic death threats, which the school then hushed up. Do not *dare* beat yourself up for not being more direct. Code words, testing the waters, indirectness, are all important tools of self protection.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's as bad as that- truthfully, I don't think she could pull off something that complex with my picking up on it- but I do think I made the right decision not to come out.

I'm so sorry. My school wasn't that bad, and I'm terribly glad for it; the worst I had to worry about realistically was that people wouldn't speak to me.

if you wanted an outsider's view...

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

I didn't read you as coming off as upset, or like you were dancing around a subject in the AIM conversation, but I can be astonishingly dense, and I've only known you recently.

Personally, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt on her immaturity in high school, her view of the relationship, and how much she cared--but her claiming in the present that she would have kept your secret had she known is, IMO, telling that she isn't as accepting as she claims.

Re: if you wanted an outsider's view...

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I think the only point of view from which those things were obvious was the view from inside my head, but unfortunately that's the one I'm stuck with.

Yes. I do believe that she sincerely thinks we still could have been friends, and I think she would have made some effort. But I also think that, once given time to consider things, she would have found herself uncomfortable with little things like gossip or hugs, and that would have expanded to cover most everything. She would have cut off contact slowly instead of denouncing me, but from my perspective it would have been equally awful.

(Also, I adore your icon! It's one of the greatest things I've ever seen.)

[rm.livejournal.com]

I don't think issues of being true to who you are qualify as mere teen angst. Nor do I think you are in any sort of wrong here.

I also must sadly report that teen angst hangs around until about 30.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Well, thank you. I'm regretting it now, because I really had no cause to ruin her memories, but at least no one thinks I was wrong about it.

Damn. That seems entirely unfair.

[childofatlantis.livejournal.com]

I would have run screaming about the time she started on about how much she missed high school and how wonderful it was, being as you appear to feel much the same as I do on the matter... >_< So, yeah, props for keeping on with the conversation. I think you handled it well and it's pretty obvious that no matter what she says, she never bothered to actually _care_ whether or not you were gay, or to take account of your feelings even if you WEREN'T...

Eh. There are few things more awkward than receiving effusions of OMGBESTFRIENDSEVAR from someone you're no longer particularly close to. I am getting this from the ex-girlfriend-who-must-not-be-named at the moment. She wants to tell me everything and I just keep thinking "don't you have someone ELSE you could talk to?" >_< /gratuitous injection of own angst.

Anyway, yeah, what was I saying? You are not a terrible person. That probably sums it up. :)

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

There are few things more awkward than receiving effusions of OMGBESTFRIENDSEVAR from someone you're no longer particularly close to

Oh, god, yes. I always feel so guilty that I don't return the feelings that I never know what to say. And she kept going on and on, and I just kept trying to come up with new reponses... I feel your pain!

Hee. Thank you.

[solo.livejournal.com]

Wow, talk about awkward.

I'm impressed by how you went out of your way not to let her down too badly about your own feelings regarding that OMGawesome!closeness which she seems to have felt and still feel. You may call that 'dancing around things', but it's also socially skilful, and shows far greater empathy with persons of questionable intelligence than I would be capable of. (Which may be why you still have some high school friends left, and I don't.)

I guess the question for me would be whether it bothered you to be so gentle with her, whether you felt you owed it to yourself to be more forceful. If so... hey, why weren't you? Is the association still important to you? If so, then you can just tell yourself that it's part of the price you pay, and leave it at that. We all make compromises.

She sounds scarily immature. Some of it may be the txt language giving me an unfair impression, but it's not just that. I wouldn't believe her, either... but hey, I probably wouldn't be talking to her, anyway.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I guess the question for me would be whether it bothered you to be so gentle with her,

No, if anything it's the opposite: I wish I could have been less forceful. I didn't need to say anything about it to her, because it no longer matters to me; I don't see her, I don't speak to her for months on end. I feel spiteful for ruining her memories when I didn't have any reason for it.

*laughs* Well, I do have to admit she was the one who started the conversation; I was just going along with it.

[kessie.livejournal.com]

I admit that all the txt and net speak immediately gave me a biased impression; it's the snobby English major in me since it only takes a few more letters to write entire words. That said, I'm not sure about coming out in high school. I sort of came out to my friends in my last year, but I still see these friends regularly enough. However, if I'd come out before I finished school, I'm not sure it would have been a good thing, since homophobic remarks and jokes were quite common on a weekly basis at school.

And don't ever think that you're a terrible person because you're not and could never be. ♥

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Net speak bothers me too, though I can promise she's a bit more articulate in person. You know, hopefully someone somewhere was able to come out in high school without problems, but I don't know of them.

Aw, thank you. ^^

[angharadd.livejournal.com]

Her notion that one has to be gay if he's distressed by homophobia killed me dead. (Obviously, one has to be a Jew to realize Nazism is wrong etc.)
You're beyond nice with her.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Ha. Yes, I enjoyed that too. And it's truly not that other possible indicators just weren't obvious- I went so far as to tell her that I didn't see why guys were attractive, once- but no, it's that I was bothered by homophobia. Clearly there is no other explanation!

[ashoka.livejournal.com]

She sounds incredibly self-absorbed, and I don't think you should worry at all about how you handled yourself during that conversation - or about how you feel about your friendships in high school.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you; I appreciate that.