Help?

[brigdh]

Okay. So let's imagine, for a moment, that I somehow managed to grow up and become a fairly well-read adult, and yet I have no knowledge of the King Arthur legends. At all. Aside from vague memories of a TV miniseries from about five years ago and the kinds of tiny details scattered throughout English literature (there's a sword in a stone? Or possibly a sword in a lake? They go looking for the Grail? Stay and found Camelot? There's an island with apples on it? Merlin wears Bermuda shorts? Knights who say ni?), I have no idea about any of the people, events, or places. But I want to know. Recommend me some things- what do you suggest as good starting points? What are some nice, thorough versions that require no foreknowledge? Or alternatively, what are some cool retellings?

And hey, since we're on the topic, recommend me any book, King Arthur or no. I'm thinking of what to ask for for Christmas, and things to read are always good.

Comments

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

T.H. White, The Once and Future King. Sad, angsty, dark; also terrifically warm-hearted and funny.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

Seconded!

[fikgirl.livejournal.com]

Thirded!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And so many people agree with you, I think I'll have to get it. *grins*

[gamera.livejournal.com]

The central work is Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur- it's not the best retelling, but it's the easiest to find (just about any bookstore should have it with "classics" or "literature"), there are no translation issues between editions (since it's in early modern English, not much more difficult than Shakespeare to read, it's generally printed as-is or with only the spelling updated), and it does contain all of the central conflicts of the Arthurian cycle (Uther Pendragon, Arthur himself, Tristan and Isolde, the Holy Grail, etc).

Most of the rest of what I'm recommending here are more in-depth looks at the "sidestories" about the other knights, because Malory is pretty much the best you're going to get on Arthur himself.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (author anonymous) is my absolute favorite piece of Arthurian literature. It's usually recognized as one of the more brilliant pieces of medieval verse, and if you find a good translation (unfortunately I can't recommend the translator I prefer, because the anthology it's in is sitting at home three hours away and I don't know the man's name off the top of my head) that really shines through. It's beautiful, sometimes hilarious, and is much more human than the other Arthurian poems. And there's guys kissing, if that's a draw for you. Also, it's short and doesn't draw so extensively on the rest of the Arthurian canon that it can't stand alone- so if you're looking for somewhere easier to jump in than Malory, this is a great place to do it.

Percival (Chretien de Troyes) is an odd one, because it's from an earlier version of the mythos than Malory used. The Grail legend's still already been Christianized, but not to the same extent that it is now (Percival's not the utter saint that Galahad), and a lot of this is utterly hilarious. Percival is where the archetype of the "stupid backwater hero" that's so common in modern fantasy has its roots, only Percival is a lot funnier about it. I mean, he goes around quoting his mommy. And again, not long, not difficult if you get a good translation, and can stand alone. :p

Tristan and Isolde (Gottfried von Strassburg) is another deviation from Malory's version (and again older). Tristan (who is, incidentally, the biggest Gary Stu in the history of western literature) and Isolde were star-crossed lovers before Shakespeare made is famous, and though this piece can seem cliched with how often the concept's been used since then, it's still a fun read. This is another one that you can jump in on without Malory, especially since this story is absolutely nothing like the story of these two in Malory's version.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And wow, you know so much about the topic. These seem like a wonderful introduction to the 'canon', so thank you again.

[kohakutenshi.livejournal.com]

Most of these were found at old book stores, but can also be found on Amazon.com :) I love juvenille to children's books with the old storyteller style, with rich descriptions and actual morals in the books. You never get too old for them, and they're great for a short read. :)

The Dark is Rising Series by Susan Cooper - Juvenille Fiction, with a little of King Arthur at the last if I remember, with one of the characters.

The Silver Kiss by Annette Curtis Klause - Very bittersweetly ending story. A MUST read. I found this gem tucked away in an old bookstore.

It's Like This, Cat by Emily Cheney Neville - I think I read this in mostly one sitting. Newberry Award Winner! :)

Sam The Cat: Detective by Linda Stewart - Awesome, and from the cat's viewpoint.

Child of the Owl and The Star Fisher by Laurence Yep - Amazing. Simply Amazing. Another one sitting book.

The Little, Leftover Witch by Florence Laughlin, Sheila Greenwald (Illustrator) - Another children's book, but A GREAT ONE. Gem found at a book throw out by the library.

The Garden Behind the Moon by Howard Pyle - This one is out in stores, and is so pretty. And I need to finish it.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! This sound very nice, and I think I might have read one or two of them- The Silver Kiss and It's Like This, Cat sound familiar. If they're the ones I'm thinking of, I really enjoyed them.

[gamera.livejournal.com]

The Dark is Rising Series by Susan Cooper - Juvenille Fiction, with a little of King Arthur at the last if I remember, with one of the characters.

Definitely seconded. I love those books.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

The Acts of King Arthur and his Noble Knights by John Steinbeck. Yes, that John Steinbeck.

It's a curious, unfinished work, published after his death, but what there is of it is really extraordinary. Steinbeck, according to his own introduction, had trouble learning to read, and it was finding Mallory and puzzling through its strangenesses that got him over his difficulties; as an adult he wanted to retell the stories in modern English. The first bit really is just a very good modernization of the Mallory, and thus gives you the flavor of the old stories (and something of their distance from us, emotionally and artistically). But then, in the midst of the book, he takes off into true re-imaginings of the events in the Mallory narrative, and the result is something amazing -- it's like no other retelling I know, clean and lovely and filled with sense of wonder and real people.

As a bonus, it has one of the most moving dedications I've ever read anywhere. In fact, I meant to post it on my own journal a few weeks ago, and zoned out about it. Maybe I'll remember to do it now.

I'd send you to Charles Williams' "Taliesin Through Logres" poetry cycle, which includes some academic discussion of the myth and its sources, but I suspect that'll go down better after you've hit the basics.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I'd send you to Charles Williams' "Taliesin Through Logres" poetry cycle, which includes some academic discussion of the myth and its sources, but I suspect that'll go down better after you've hit the basics.

And also is damned difficult to get hold of.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, thank you. It sounds very good, and I'm definetely keeping this is mind as one of the first one's I'll check out. I've never heard of it before, which is strange; he's such a wll-known author that you'd think all his books would be as well. You say it's unfinished: is it missing a lot, or just editing type things?

[b-hallward.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say that one of the classic sources of Arthurian legend is Malory's Morte D'Arthur, which is quite long but easily available in selected tales from if you just want the highlights. (Interestingly, it -- and almost everything else by Malory -- was written during the almost twenty years he spent in prison.) It's a 15th-century compilation that draws on both French and English sources, and is one of the greatest attempts to take the thousands of stories (or at least versions of stories) in the Arthurian cycle and create a single, fairly coherent narrative.

But if you want something a little more eclectic, one of my favorite Arthurian authors is Chretien de Troyes (late twelfth century) -- a great poet, but unless you really feel like learning a bit of old french, Penguin Classics has a very serviceable prose translation. Chretien doesn't have the same sweeping breadth of coverage as Malory (only 5 tales, I think), but he wrote a very interesting version of the Lancelot/Guinevere affair (The Knight of the Cart) and a fascinating, incomplete account of the grail quest.

Lastly, if you'd like a Arthurian story written by an actual Brit (and which draws on the older, un-frenchified native & germanic traditions) there's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, written by an unknown approximate contemporary of Chaucer often called the Pearl poet. The poetry itself is of significant interest (Middle English alliterative lines, distinctive bob-and-wheel stanza pattern) but the obscure dialect makes a translation necessary -- Tolkien's is probably the best known, but new ones are made every decade or so by professors of Middle English lit with too little to do.

Hmm, I got a bit carried away, huh? oh well. To wit: Malory is a good place to get an idea of the main stories and how they fit together into a larger framework.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Carried away? Sheh, I asked for recs, didn't I? And though I hadn't managed to get around to replying till now, all the responses made me very happy- I have the smartest friend's list ever!

Interestingly, it -- and almost everything else by Malory -- was written during the almost twenty years he spent in prison

You know, so was Marco Polo's book. Strange. Perhaps I should do something to go to jail and see if it doesn't help my writing. ;)

Thank you, though. I think I'm going to start off with Malory and then see what catches my interest next.

[eag.livejournal.com]

Read the classics, and then read "The Mists of Avalon." Kind of turns the Arthurian legend on its head, from the perspective of the major female antagonist.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Did you like Mists of Avalon? I've generally heard bad things about it, but I'd love to hear your opinion.

Yay books!

[thedemonprist.livejournal.com]

Can't help you on the Arthurian stuff (I know next to nothing about it and it's never been one of my particular favorites, probably because it's so widely popular - I tend to avoid the 'status quo'), but I can recommend a couple of good reads:

On Writing by Stephen King - a funny sort of 'how-to' on writing and his particular experiences. Kind of like a mini-biography, in a way, but damn funny and interesting.

The Iranians: Persia, Islam and the Soul of a Nation by Sandra Mackey - It's an introspective look at the history of Iran (particularly since the days of the Shah up to the 1990's moderate movement) and gives a glimpse of possibilities for the future. I find this one particularly interesting given current world events and our dictatorship government.

The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity by Julia Cameron - It's basically a self-help book for anyone with creative impulses, with various writing exercises and such you can do to try to harness your ideas.

Re: Yay books!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And how ironic- I just finished reading The Right to Write by Julia Cameron last week. ^^

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

I can't believe I forgot this one: The Crystal Cave (and The Hollow Hills by Mary Stewart. Retelling of the basic arc of Arthur's birth and ascent to the throne from Merlin's point of view, beautifully researched and compulsively readable. (Stewart finished out the story -- there are two more books in the series, The Last Enchantment and The Wicked Day, but I've never thought either of them quite measured up to the first two.)

Then there's the musical "Camelot," for what the popular culture remembers in a two-hour nutshell.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you again. A few other people have reccommend The Crystal Cave as well, so I've put it on my list of books to get. And Camelot, heh, I'd completely forgotten about that. I've never seen it, but then I've only seen a few musicals at all.

[rackhamrose.livejournal.com]

Corbenic, by Catherine Fisher.

You may have to beg a British friend or paw through used-book sites to find it, but it's so very worth it. Fisher is an astonishingly good writer in the teen/young adult genre (her first stateside release, also worth reading, is The Oracle Betrayed, which takes place in a culture that combines the traditions of ancient Greece and ancient Egypt), and Corbenic is a modern reworking of part of the Grail legend. No real mention of Arthur, but it's beautifully done--it's one of those very rare YA books where you have main character rage and fear that isn't gratuitous angst. I felt for the poor kid.

(I, myself, wouldn't recommend Camelot, but then I've really never liked the Arthurian legends, and I had to sit through this in high school after an exam and oh god make the pain go away.)

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

(Dude, I was in it. You wanna talk pain? Let's talk pain. One beautiful song, one funny song, and a lot of melodramatic crap in the middle.)

see Rana ramble

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Before Malory, there was Geoffrey of Monmouth and his work The History of the Kings of Britain. So far as anyone has been able to determine, this is the earliest written version of the Arthurian legend. Penguin Classics has issued a modernized version (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140441700/qid=1101878057/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-7434432-7960709?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's not the most readable and interesting thing in the world, but it will give you a lot of the basics. Note that there is no Lancelot. Lancelot was inflicted on the legend by the French court (via the Vulgate Cycle, if I remember correctly), and it has sadly never recovered.

I've done a lot of research into Arthur and have a number of books on him. I've also collected a number of retellings. My favorite is Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy, The Crystal Cave, The Hidden Hills, and The Last Enchantment. I also adore her companion book, The Wicked Day, which is the story from Mordred's point of view. Merlin and Mordred are my two favorite Arthurian figures, which is one reason I love Mary Stewart's work. Another is that she excises Lancelot completely.

Others have mentioned The Once and Future King. T. H. White also wrote The Book of Merlyn. I've never quite made it through either, truth be told, but you might like them. Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon is also held up as a classic "feminist retelling." I found it one of the worst things I've ever read, but then, I'm no fan of Bradley.

If you like narrative poetry, you might enjoy Alfred Lord Tennyson's The Idylls of the King, featuring the famous The Lady of Shallott. I'm a huge fan of poetry, and these are some of Tennyson's best.

A truly well-made Arthurian movie seems too much to ask, but two of the better-known and influential ones are, of course, Camelot, which will give you the sanitized basics most people know, and Excalibur, which is a rather gorgeous mess and has a lot of actors who later went on to become very famous. First Knight is also pretty well-known, and then there's this summer's travesty offering, King Arthur.

Both Samuel Clemens and Geoffrey Chaucer made use of the legend in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and Canterbury Tales (the Wife of Bath's tale), respectively. And of course, no list of Arthurian retellings would be complete with mentioning Rosemary Sutcliffe and Susan Cooper.

Really, though, your best bet for a thorough overview of the legend as generally accepted is King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. I read the version by Roger Lancelyn Green in junior high, but I understand the version by Howard Pyle (he of Robin Hood and His Merry Men fame) is just as useful for getting the basics under your belt.

I'll stop there, because I could seriously go on about this subject for days. Arthur is incredibly pervasive in the specfic genre, as are the tales from whence he sprang.

Re: see Rana ramble

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Just a note: The Book of Merlyn is sometimes bound with The Once and Future King, sometimes not. They are meant to go together.

[solo.livejournal.com]

Most of the ones, classics and retellings, that I would have recommended have already been mentioned. I particularly recommend The Once and Future King and Steinbeck's Acts of King Arthur.

The one book I haven't seen mentioned yet (perhaps because it's not exactly a good introduction, more a fun read when you already know the underlying storyline) is Nicholas Seare's Rude Tales And Glorious, Being: The Only True Account Of Diverse Feats Of Brawn And Bawd Performed by King Arthur And His Knights of the Table Round. It's a send-up. It's rude and bawdy and funny.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I imagine that, as dark and angsty as some as these descriptions sound, I'll be looking forward to some humor. *grins*

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

As a general recommendation I like Christopher Moore's Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal and Neil Gaiman + Terry Pratchett's Good Omens. If you're easily offended by blasphemous humor mixed with christianity, then they might not be for you. But I found them both to be entertaining, if a little dark in places, easy to read and enjoy.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Hee, thank you. I've read both of those already, but since I simply adored them- Good Omens is one of my favorite books *ever*- you obviously know my taste.

The Matter of Britain

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

meganchan and ranalore have already hit about everything I would have recommended for classics, and rachelmanija hit nearly all I would have recommended for contemporary retellings. (The Winter Prince The Winter Prince you must read The Winter Price--and also The Once and Future King.) (There's another Arthurian retelling where Arthur has a daughter, by Vera Chapman, but it's not very good. Stick to The Winter Prince.)

Many, many people will refer you to Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon. I have a very conflicted relationship with MZB's writing, which no one else is interested in; I will say I find her a very powerful storyteller, am appalled that she's held up as a feminist because I find her gender politics poorly thought out and contradictory, and that her complete ahistorical mess of sources drives every single anthropologist I know insane. And it's a shame, because the idea of retelling the Arthurian legends from the women's points of view is a very strong one.

Other modern retellings of note:

- Gillian Bradshaw's A Hawk in May trilogy (the first two focus on Gwalchai [Gawaine] and the last offers one of the few Guineveres I've found sympathetic), which is as historically accurate as MZB claims to be;

- Naomi Mitchison's To the Chapel Perilous, which is more on the T.H. White end of thing, and starts off with a bunch of reporters staking out the chapel of the Grail and turning in copy on all the knights who show up, and then slowly turns from antic glee to darker reflections about social responsibility and the crumbling of social order;

- C.J. Cherryh has a very weird and pretty unsuccessful sf novel called Port Eternity about clones who are imprinted with the Tennyson poem and then cast off into an alternate dimension which may as well be Fairyland, where they seem more and more to be becoming their roles ... You know, I'm not sure I'd recommend this. I have it because I'm a completist and I like C.J. Cherryh in general and weird ambitious failures sometimes appeal to me, and it has the odd charm of C.J. Cherryh trying to write Andre Norton -- but this is an intersection of my particular likes and reading histories I'm not sure I'd really want to inflict on anyone else. Particularly if they've never read Cherryh before, because there are so many better places to start.

At one time many people highly recommended Parke Godwin's The Fire Lord and Beloved Exile, but they never really did anything for me. I haven't read Rosemary Sutcliff's A Sword in Sunset, but many of my friends rave about it.

I'd really love to recommend any book whatsoever, because it is my major joy in life, but it's such a broad set of constraints I freeze. Sorry. ;)

Re: The Matter of Britain

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Port Eternity is extremely strange. I can't imagine what it would read like if you weren't familiar with the Arthur mythos to begin with-- probably just strange in a different way. I can't really recommend it except to Cherryh completists.

I can, however, recommend Cherryh. Her hallmarks are a fierce intelligence coupled with a rather odd, jolting writing style, a total lack of sentimentality, and a refusal to spell things out to the reader but rather to let the reader figure out what's going on for him or herself. This may be a little hard to get used to at first-- many of her books require that you just plow through the first chapter or so and trust that you'll be engrossed by the second-- but once you do get used to her unique style, the rewards are great.

Her main characters are often sensitive, intelligent young men or women who are stuck in extremely complicated political or social situations where they have no clue what's going on, must read every tiny signal correctly or die, and are often suffering physically at the same time. They may have loved ones, who are generally in the same boat. Oh, and a fair number of them are gay. If aliens are involved, they are generally genuinely alien and interesting. Expect really exciting action scenes, terrific characterization, and truckloads of angst. Look for her in the sf section; virtually everything she's written is in print.

I think Cherryh's main theme is the search for a family, even if it's a totally screwed-up, violent, and insane one, and it generally is.

I recommend...

Cyteen, generally considered her masterpiece. You may skip the prologue, and may have to force yourself through the first chapter, but believe me, once it picks up it moves like lightning. When a brilliant woman scientist dies suddenly, she is cloned by people who desperately hope the clone will carry on her work... and so set out to give the clone a replica of the original's experiences, childhood traumas and all. A terrific, weird epic, full of tormented characters. A young man and his genetically engineered brother/lover are particularly memorable in the very large cast.

The Paladin. A peasant girl enlists a crippled swordfighter to teach her to fight; the two of them end up launching a small-scale military campaign in a medieval Japan-analogue. Great training sequences and a new take on a very old story.

Foreigner. A young man is a translator on an alien planet where he doesn't really understand the aliens or, at any given moment, much of anything, but must get things right, always, or horrible consequences will happen. Unrelentingly intense and sometimes blackly funny, the ultimate stranger in a strange land story, unless you want to vote for...

Cuckoo's Egg. A human boy is raised by samurai-like aliens who put him through relentless training; their reasons for this turn out to be logical and unexpectedly moving. Also very intense, with a lovely final scene.

Rimrunners. A young woman must survive on a ship full of people who are her sworn enemies, though they don't know it. This is one of Cherryh's few novels which starts out with a bang, so it would be a good first choice.

Lurker. >>

[yukiru.livejournal.com]

Thomas Berger's Arthur Rex, though it may be out of print.

Re: Lurker. >>

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Dude, I have a lurker? How cool! You have totally made my day.

And thanks for the rec. ^^