Reading Wednesday

[brigdh]

What did you just finish?
The Co-Wife and Other Stories by Munshi Premchand. A collection of short stories by a famous Hindi author, who I had not read before. This- it seemed to me- is a fairly comprehensive overview of the various genres he wrote in, along with most of his most famous stories (Winter's Night, Shroud, Panch Parameshvar). There is definitely a tendency for his stories to read like morality plays. I don't think I'll be seeking out more of his work, though I liked this well enough.

Days of the Dead by Barbara Hambly. OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS BOOK SO MUCH. *flail* I think this is possibly my favorite of the January books. Or Dead Water. Or The Shirt on His Back. IT'S REALLY HARD TO CHOOSE. But this book is like one long streak of id: Hannibal angsting in handcuffs and Rose dressing up as her "evil twin sister" to go flirt at the Opera before dressing up as a man to go herd cattle and Ben pretending to be stoic while secretly being desperate to protect everyone he loves and then everything comes down to PEANUTS. Bandits! Insane asylums! Cathedrals! Becoming-a-nun parties! Bull fighting! Hannibal in drag! Aztec pyramids! Human sacrifice! Ghosts! Santa Anna is hanging around being a suave asshole! Ugh, it's amazing. I love the setting; I don't think I've ever read anything else set in Mexico City and its outskirts in the 1830s, but this book makes it sound fascinating. There's also a lot of really interesting one-off characters in this one; Valentina and Don Prospero and Ylario and Werther and Cristobal should all make re-appearances, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I wish I knew more about the Aztecs. I'm pretty familiar with the Mayans, but not so much most of the other Precolumbian Mesoamerican cultures.

Dead Water by Barbara Hambly. Murder on a steamboat! I really like how this book uses the "country house" mystery trope (no one can come, no one can leave), except it's a steamboat instead. This book is just entirely comprised of OT3 feelings for me, from where Hannibal agrees to help because "I love you and Rose too much" to where he throws a pillow at Ben (THEY ARE SUCH 12-YEAR-OLDS) to where Rose kisses Hannibal to where all three of them get in a massive fight about Hannibal risking his life to protect the other two, during which Ben compares himself to a lady and Hannibal to his suitor. The whole duel plotline is so sad and sweet and basically the best thing ever. I want there to be fanfiction about the three of them heading back downstream to New Orleans, in which they are sharing a cabin and- not being busy solving murders- just hang out and play music and dance and drink coffee and have sex.

I also love the blackmail mystery of Jubal Cain ("What's the only thing worse than a slave trader?" made me laugh SO HARD). Note: the first time I read this, I managed to not realize that Col. Davis is the Jefferson Davis until I got to the author's note in the back. Being aware of it this time made for a slightly odd reading experience; he's such a good guy here.

What are you currently reading?
A River Sutra by Gita Mehta. This is turning out to be way more of a ~India is such a spiritual country~ book than I could have predicted from what I've read by the author previously.

Dead and Buried by Barbara Hambly. Hannibal backstory!

Comments

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

from where Hannibal agrees to help because "I love you and Rose too much" to where he throws a pillow at Ben (THEY ARE SUCH 12-YEAR-OLDS) to where Rose kisses Hannibal to where all three of them get in a massive fight about Hannibal risking his life to protect the other two, during which Ben compares himself to a lady and Hannibal to his suitor.

YES. I love so much that all of this happened, and the duel in particular is ahhhh. ("I was watching Hannibal." "Well I was watching Hannibal too" THEY LOVE HIM SO MUCH THEY COULDN'T LOOK AWAY THOUGH THEY WERE SURE HE WAS ABOUT TO DIE HORRIBLY). I definitely want the fic you described, something witty and fluffy and glorious and fullll of coffee. I like them as they are in the book, platonic, but I also definitely want them to start shagging like rabbits. (Hannibal is healthy AND sober now!)

ALSO ELENA THE EVIL TWIN, THERE NEEDS TO BE SO MUCH KINK-EXPLORATION FIC. And rescuing Ben from oncoming bulls, I chortled so so hard. I agree that these are maybe the best books (well, also Dead and Buried, because, you know, Hannibal gains social perspective, which, honestly, might also be a perquisite to happy sex-funtimes).

Also, know who is interesting? Consuela is interesting. I mean, in the previous book, she's kind of - cartoon-y, with the poisoning, but in Days of the Dead it all got explained (ie. her household is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND ALSO UNHEALTHY). Hambly is a genius with family dynamics. Poor Josefa, though.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

YES. There are so many bits of "Dead Water" that I want to capslock about. When Ben gets stuck off the boat and Hannibal goes "ROSE WAS GOING TO BREAK THE ENGINES" and Rose goes "HANNIBAL WAS GOING TO SET FIRE TO THE PILOT ROOM" and Ben just is like "...y'all are crazy."!! When Hannibal is going off to the duel and Rose is like "Who should we tell if you die?" and Hannibal says, "everyone who cares about me is here"!!! Hannibal refusing to move in with them for the sake of Rose's school's reputation!!!

I would actually also read all the fic about the three of them being platonic BFFs. But that is sort of what the canon is already? Not that I wouldn't read SO MUCH MORE OF IT. I want them to go to Mardi Gras parties! I want them to go to the Opera and Ben and Hannibal are very serious about the music performance and Rose snarks about the plot and/or special effects! I want Rose and Hannibal attempting to teach Ben how to pick locks!

"Dead and Buried" is also really really good! (Speaking of Hannibal being sober, I also want the all the angsty withdrawal fic.) Hannibal needs to get some responsibility more than social perspective, I think. He's sort of oblivious to things going on around him, but once it's pointed out, he's on the side of good, so to speak. For instance, it's not that he objects to his son marrying someone of mixed race, he just fails to realize that that is what is happening.

I SO WANT THERE TO BE MORE ELENA. But I suppose people would recognize her in New Orleans, even if Rose was all dressed up. Clearly this is reason for them all to start visiting other cities!

Consuela is totally interesting! I would have loved to see more of what her and Hannibal's relationship was like, before the situation turned terrible. Poor everyone in that family. Especially once you realize what happened to at least some of Prospero's wives and mistresses.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

I have been thinking about your point re: responsibility, and yessssssss that is exactly it!

While Hannibal was an eccentric freelancing violinist with no ties to anyone, his race-really-doesn't-matter-at-all approach was perfectly sufficient; indeed, that was what made him so valuable to Ben when Ben arrived from Paris. But, like, during the series, he became more and more aware of all the things that he can do and Ben and Rose cannot - he was really good, actually, about keeping up with that. And then he got a son, too, and it just became apparent that if he's to have best friends who are people of colour, and a son in love with a woman of colour, he needs to be realistic about the way racism works. And he's like OKAY BRING IT ON, because he's kind of cool like that.

My thing with Ben/Hannibal/Rose is, I want them platonic BFFs AND I want them in love; but also I want two kinds of love story - both the careless adorable coffee sex times and the serious social considerations/dilemmas about polyamory. Like, not at the same time! There needs to be SO MUCH MORE FIC, is what I am saying, and I'm so so happy you've started solving this grave problem. <3

(also, yessss, angsty withdrawal fic, yes please. And angsty "ooops he had to relapse for Plot Reasons / not to break his cover and now withdrawal again :(" fic. And, just, soooo much fic.)

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I HAVE A LOT OF THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS OKAY. And I don't know if they make sense to anyone outside of my own head.

So, I think Hannibal in the early books has himself convinced that nothing he does affects anyone else, one way or the other. Which is kind of a weird attitude to have, but that seems to have been his goal when he faked his death; he says (talking about himself in the third person in this quote), "I know he knew what he was doing to Philippa – to his wife,’ he corrected himself, ‘and to you, living as he did. And to his lands, for which he had . . . a great deal more feeling than most people guessed. I heard him say, more than once, that you and your mother would be better caretakers for his birthright than he was ever capable of being." And later, he says, "But, as she’d told me, my actions weren’t the acts of love. Nor, I suppose, would they have been, even if I’d known any way in God’s green world to stop. I knew before long she’d start hating me, and I didn’t – I couldn’t stand the thought of it." So, basically, he seems to have set out to be able to be an alcoholic/drug-addicted/gambler/womanizer/whatever, except this time without hurting anyone other than himself, because there's no one around who is close enough to him for his behavior to have consequences for. This is part of why he comes off as so eccentric- doing things like wearing flowers/feathers/pink ribbons in his hair, publicly having coffee with black people, or speaking Latin to people who have no idea what he's saying- he basically thinks no one is even paying attention to whatever he does, much less cares, so he can do whatever he wants. But that's also why he tends to be a lot less emotionally involved in whatever mystery/injustice Ben is currently investigating and a lot less helpful regarding race than he could be; he thinks of himself as really isolated from everything going on around him. And if you can't hurt anyone, then you can't help anyone either. Ben mentions a few times that Hannibal tends to get the most drunk whenever he's needed, and that's probably not a coincidence, whether he's doing it on purpose to avoid responsibilities or subconsciously because he can't take the pressure.

But! Then he goes to Mexico and almost dies. And he seems to realize that he does not, in fact, want to die all nameless and forgotten, and also that he's not as disconnected as he thought; people deeply care about him (he says twice that he didn't actually expect Ben and Rose to come and try to help him). And so he starts trying to honor that, and deserve it, but it's hard to break the habits of nearly two decades, and so he's not always very good at remembering to think about the bigger picture, unless it's really obvious or someone points it out to him. But he's slowly getting better at it; in 'Dead Water' and 'The Shirt on His Back', his idea of being helpful is mostly just "I don't mind dying if it helps the situation!" Which is very loyal of him, but is also kind of a quick and easy answer. But in 'Ran Away', he spends a lot of time assisting another addict through withdrawal, and is clearly aware (possibly helping?) Ben and Rose with the Underground Railroad.

So, those are my thoughts! I have just finished re-reading 'Dead and Buried' and possibly have spent way too much time trying to figure out Hannibal's motivations therein.

(also, yessss, angsty withdrawal fic, yes please. And angsty "ooops he had to relapse for Plot Reasons / not to break his cover and now withdrawal again :(" fic. And, just, soooo much fic.)

OMG YES. That would be beautiful. And also withdrawal fic set between 'Days of the Dead' and 'Dead Water', because the only thing more angsty than regular withdrawal fic is withdrawal fic where at the end he's STILL ADDICTED. :(

I also want fic where he's injured or ill or something, and someone is trying to convince hm to take some laudanum for the pain- just a little! it's okay!- and he's like "nooooooo I'm afraid of relapse" (by which I mean he actually pretends not to be in pain with a joke that involves Ancient Greek). And Ben is around and being emo over trying to decide if he should talk Hannibal into taking it or not. And everyone is being very stoic but secretly ~in pain~.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

THIS YES PERFECT.

So, basically, he seems to have set out to be able to be an alcoholic/drug-addicted/gambler/womanizer/whatever, except this time without hurting anyone other than himself, because there's no one around who is close enough to him for his behavior to have consequences for.

Yessssss. I think it's a, like, part self-loathing regret regarding Philippa, part hedonist practicality, part habit, part pain-induced depression... but mostly, yes, it's the choice to isolate himself so as not to harm people. Like, kind of, calm low-drama first-though-shall-not-harm self-destructiveness.

Except, that TOTALLY doesn't work once he falls into Benjamin's orbit. Because Ben has ALL THE FEELS, okay, and his superpower is connecting with everybody and being aware of every injustice.

So, just hanging around with him leads to the Social Awakening of Hannibal Sefton - which is a gradual process, and it involves making-himself-useful things like washing sheets in Rose's school or gathering information AND making-himself-useful-as-a-white-man-in-particular things like offering to escort Ben home or joining a brawl for him..

But, absolutely, his keeping-his-distance thing ends in Days if the Dead, where he suddenly realises he doesn't want to die, and writes that heartbreaking letter... and then, to his everlasting surprise, is actually saved! by the cavalry! Who bring him news of home, which he actually cares about, and who are determined to believe him and trust him and get him away. So, that's his moment of being completely humbled and realising he is loved - and I love that Ben and Rose never intended to shame him for leaving. They just came, because he's theirs, and of course they couldn't leave him.

Mmmmmm, in conclusion.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

ALSO WORTH NOTING: I say he "fell into" Benjamin's orbit, but the truth is that they attracted each other. Like, throughout his I-am-a-rolling-stone hippie lone wolfness, Hannibal always had a strong sense of compassion, which was the one thing Ben really needed that night - - - and, I think the same compassion is what drives Hannibal to take part in all of Ben's superheroic adventures. Because, you know, Benjamin has this unstoppable people-helping desire and Hannibal loves sidekicking because he can do it while convincing himself he's not involved (and also, he looooves following people - someone else giving him structure!).

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I think it's a, like, part self-loathing regret regarding Philippa, part hedonist practicality, part habit, part pain-induced depression... but mostly, yes, it's the choice to isolate himself so as not to harm people. Like, kind of, calm low-drama first-though-shall-not-harm self-destructiveness.

AHHH, YES. It is a really complicated decision. I think it's likely he contracted TB around that time as well, and the feeling of "well, I'm going to die soon anyway" may also have played a part.

And if I did not mention it before, OMG Hannibal has so many self-hatred problems. Which interestingly, becomes way more obvious in Days of the Dead and later; I think early on he's actually kind of used to feeling that way, and it's only when he starts trying to change that it comes out.

Because Ben has ALL THE FEELS, okay, and his superpower is connecting with everybody and being aware of every injustice.

Hahaha, that is the best description of Ben ever.

So, just hanging around with him leads to the Social Awakening of Hannibal Sefton - which is a gradual process, and it involves making-himself-useful things like washing sheets in Rose's school or gathering information AND making-himself-useful-as-a-white-man-in-particular things like offering to escort Ben home or joining a brawl for him..

Yeah. Because Hannibal is generally polite and helpful in a sort of low-key way. He doesn't tend to say no to things he's directly asked- and clearly Ben (and probably Rose) could basically ask him anything and he would do it. But he starts to get his own initiative more and more as the series goes on- something like when he goes and gets Marie Laveau to put a fake curse on the house in "Ran Away"- I don't think he would have thought of that earlier. I would really love to see Hannibal do something, as you say, to make-himself-useful-as-a-white-man-in-particular in a bigger way. But (to think about it on the meta level), I suspect Hambly really wants to make sure that it's January who is the hero, and to avoid the 'White Savior' trope. Which is good!

This is kind of tangential, but I love how "Die Upon a Kiss" has all these tiny moments of Hannibal being really thoughtful in regards to Ben, particularly since most of them happen without any discussion between the two of them, just something done almost subconsciously: making the coffee and bringing Ben a cup in the beginning when Ben is cut, throwing himself into the brawl, escorting him home (especially the time when everyone else forgets and leaves Ben alone at the opera), bringing ice for his hands after he gets into the fight with Big Lou.

and I love that Ben and Rose never intended to shame him for leaving. They just came, because he's theirs, and of course they couldn't leave him.

SO GOOD. I do sort of secretly wish there was a little more "I missed you!", but I know it's better how it is. And I like the hints that they've all been writing each other letters steadily.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes.

A lot of people, if they felt like they had no ties to anyone, would be cruel and uncaring. But Hannibal is naturally just friendly and interested in others and so he's kind even when he doesn't "have" to be. In fact, he's more compassionate because he's not following social conventions, and not just in regards to race (which, yeah, is exactly what Ben needed the night they met and is totally why they get along so well, because they both have that quality). Ben likes to roll his eyes and be like "Oh, Hannibal, he's always flirting with some lady", but I think most of Hannibal's relationships with women are completely platonic (not that I think he's chaste, it's just that he enjoys talking with people as much as he enjoys getting into bed with them). And he probably has so many female friends because he doesn't treat them like they're stupid, or incompetent, or shallow, or whores, or whatever else would be typical for the 1830s. He does seem to really like quoting poetry about how pretty someone is, but appears to be sensitive to who would and would not appreciate that sort of thing, since he never does it to Rose.

Because, you know, Benjamin has this unstoppable people-helping desire and Hannibal loves sidekicking because he can do it while convincing himself he's not involved (and also, he looooves following people - someone else giving him structure!).

Hahahaha, TRUTH.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

Soooo many self-hatred problems, seriously. And, absolutely, he's used to them, used to having no expectations of himself - right until he realises that he matters to people (to at least two people!) and then becomes SO ANGRY at himself for not being more functional. Which kind of leads to that tragic duel. And then even more rage, because he thinks he killed the dude in self-defence but he doesn't like himself enough to consider himself worth defending.

[Compare and contrast: when Ben killed his first villain onscreen, his thoughts were "all my people are safe!" and "well, I'm going to have to edit the details when I go to confession on Sunday". Because Ben has a healthy and setting-appropriate moral code, and also has been a doctor for decades and is used to the possibility of people's lives depending on him. Which is really rather hot when you think about it.]

Also, I knowwww what you mean about craving a crowning moment of useful for Hannibal. I mean, eleven books in, the January = hero; Sefton = swooning sidekick dynamic is well-established and we could afford Hannibal getting a Sidekick Saves The Day moment without upstaging Ben's narrative role, but it has to be written really carefully. (And, preferably, after yet another Rose Saves Everybody book.) I mean, hmm, the thing with the White Savior trope is, it can be okay to have a privileged person use their privilege to help their not-privileged friends... but not when it's written so that the oppressed group's suffering is, like, a prop / window dressing / fetishised.* Which, I mean, is unlikely to happen in Hambly's writing! But it's important, I think, to keep Hannibal's heroism in microcosm - ie. him saving individuals rather than, like, a ship or tribe or city of people. And there'd have to be a book reasserting the proper hero-sidekick dynamics right after, preferably with Hannibal getting saved from a tower or similar.

*also not when that's the only kind of narrative available, which it almost always is. Which Hambly is very keenly aware of, I think.

(In-text, I think both Hannibal and Ben know that Ben is the hero. A lot of Ben's internal conflict about Rose joining him for adventures is about chivalry / protectiveness, but some is about recognising he needs to share the heroism narrative with her, because Rose Vitrac is simply not sidekick material.)

SO GOOD. I do sort of secretly wish there was a little more "I missed you!", but I know it's better how it is. And I like the hints that they've all been writing each other letters steadily.


Oh yessssss. I think that neither Ben nor Rose are even capable of saying "I missed you" at this point though? I mean, Rose is very hands-off in all her personal interactions (except maaaaybe with her schoolgirls), and anyway she has many feelings about independence and personal autonomy, so she'd never imply Hannibal was maybe wrong to randomly elope to Mexico like that. Whereas Benjamin mostly just keeps thinking I'm-going-to-wring-Hannibal's-neck. (Which, somebody needs to write that tender erotic asphyxiation story. Also, somebody is going to have to compare the gruff-love kind of way that Benjamin thinks about Hannibal and Minou with the awe-and-adoration with which he regards Rose and Olympe. I think that maybe that kind of long-suffering tolerance approach is the only way he can forgive Hannibal and Minou for their relative privilegedness? Which is a coping mechanism as good as any!)

So, yeah, in this relationship, Hannibal is going to have to be the one making all the soppy declarations. In hexameter. probably.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree re: Hannibal and the platonic girlfriends. I particularly love that Hambly pointed out that it's Hannibal's vulnerableness that makes him so attractive. (I think she mentioned it in relation with Kiki, which, it's kind of amazing that Kiki could form any emotional attachment at all at that point of her life, let alone for an ailing white nerd who kept spamming her with poetry.)

Also, yessss, respecting women is the superpower that Ben and Hannibal share, though they do so in extremely different ways. With Ben it's more "please honor me with sharing your vast tactical insights and life experiences". With Hannibal it's "Ribbons! :D! Shakespeare!". But both of them are entirely aware that women are human beings with thoughts and feelings and motivations, and this sets them apart from most men in their society.

(Shaw, too, is aware of it though! I wonder what his wife was like...)

Mmm, very good point about never trying to flatter Rose. I will have to pay attention, when I reread, to the selectiveness of his flattery - it never once felt sleezy or intrusive, as far as I rememvber!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Ugh, yes yes yes. And I think part of the excessive-ness of his reaction after the duel is that he completely expected to die (or maybe if really lucky they would both miss), and so he is shocked at what actually happens. And he even sort of feels like he failed. I think his emotions went from "~I finally found something I am capable of doing that will help Ben&Rose!~ XD" and took a real abrupt turn into "OMG I'M A MURDERER". Hannibal is remarkably non-violent for being in a murder mystery series; every other time there's a gun fight in progress, he sits in the back and loads for other people. This is the only time we see him fire a gun.

(The non-existent fic set after Dead Water with the three of them wasting time on a downriver steamboat really needs to include a scene where someone finally has the chance to tell Hannibal he didn't actually kill anyone.)

Ben's attitude is much more reasonable. And Rose's would be too, presumably. I'm trying to think if she's ever killed anyone, and I don't think so, but she does shoot at people during the climax of 'Wet Grave', though they don't have time to really see if she killed them or not. I really like your theory that Ben's being a doctor plays into it; it totally makes sense that he would be used to making life-or-death decisions. And Rose is so cool and collected about everything, she's just like "well, if that's what I need to do, that's what I'll do". Whereas Hannibal is like "I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO BE IN CHARGE OF $2, MUCH LESS PEOPLE'S LIVES DDDD:".

craving a crowning moment of useful for Hannibal

I want it so much! But yes to everything you say. I suppose it's also possible to have Hannibal do something big and important with January (or Rose!) still getting the ultimate victory of solving the plot/winning the day/whatever climatic thing. And there really does need to be a Rose Saves Everybody book soon! She hasn't gotten to have a main role since 'Dead Water', which is way too many books ago. She's kind of around in 'Dead and Buried' and 'Ran Away', though she doesn't get to do much of importance, and she's almost entirely absent from both 'The Shirt on His Back' and 'Good Man Friday'. (I saw on Barbara Hambly's facebook page that she's started Benjamin January #13, but she didn't say what it's about. Still. So excited!!)

I think that neither Ben nor Rose are even capable of saying "I missed you" at this point though?

That's a good point. I agree with you about Rose, and I think Ben has long since picked up on the fact that Hannibal can be very closed-off in some regards. Certainly at some point in their years of friendship Ben realized that asking questions about Hannibal's past was a bad idea, and he seems very respectful of that. (Though I would totally read fic set early on about Ben attempting to pry, and Hannibal's reaction.)

Which, somebody needs to write that tender erotic asphyxiation story

AHHH THAT HAD NEVER OCCURRED TO ME AND NOW I WANT IT MORE THAN ANYTHING

(I have become too long-winded to fit into one LJ comment!)

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Also, somebody is going to have to compare the gruff-love kind of way that Benjamin thinks about Hannibal and Minou with the awe-and-adoration with which he regards Rose and Olympe. I think that maybe that kind of long-suffering tolerance approach is the only way he can forgive Hannibal and Minou for their relative privilegedness? Which is a coping mechanism as good as any!

That is really interesting! I think part of it also is that their privilege is protection from all the vagaries of life, and Ben's default mode is WORRY ABOUT EVERYONE. Ben has serious abandonment issues (that's not quite the right word, since it's not like his father and Ayasha abandoned him, but close enough). And Olympe gets that since she did sort of abandon him, or at least ran away and stopped speaking to him for a long time. Rose probably gets it because she's his wife, and ~associations~. And also, her backstory makes him feel like he came very close to losing her (before he actually had met her, but still), and the back-and-forth-ness of their early relationship made him very anxious and helpless. He's so afraid of being alone, poor dear. And Hannibal and Minou are dependent on him in a way Rose and Olympe are not- that is, Rose and Olympe are perfectly capable of going off and living their own lives if they had cause to, while Hannibal and Minou are more likely to be the Desdemona in an Othello situation. Which does not speak well of their self-esteem, but it means Ben worries less about their leaving him.

When either Hannibal or Minou are actually in danger, he does switch to thinking about them in much more serious and intense terms, like when he thinks Hannibal is dead at the climax of 'Sold Down the River' and he starts vowing to kill everyone, or when Minou is kidnapped in 'Good Man Friday' and he's so desperate and guilty and sad.

And, well, they both can be very silly and Ben is deeply invested in thinking of himself as Proper, and having other people take him seriously. The fact that they don't care as much (well, Minou cares, but she's been socialized into a very different standard of behavior than Ben has), I think Ben sees as sort of childish, and it's hard to be too awestruck by someone you think of as childish. You can love them and indulge them, but you don't put them on a pedestal. Of course, to loop this back around to the beginning, it's a privilege to not need to care; if Ben was as silly, he would lose a lot of status, which neither of them are risking.

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

(The non-existent fic set after Dead Water with the three of them wasting time on a downriver steamboat really needs to include a scene where someone finally has the chance to tell Hannibal he didn't actually kill anyone.)


YES IT DOES. Would Hannibal even believe them or would he be like "nice try, amicus meus :("? Though, I suppose it's physically impossible to disbelieve Rose when she does her glasses-stare thing.

I totally agree about Rose! Her whole morality is determined by the twin forces of empathy and practicalness. If she had to kill someone, she might feel passing sadness for their wasted humanity, but mostly she'd feel like WELL YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE AFTER ME AND MINE THEN.

(I looooove that Ben anthropomorphises Rose's rational humanist theology as "the Clockmaker who ran Rose's universe". Do you think those are her words or Ben's?)

There absolutely needs to be a Rose-centric book now. Shaw can babysit Baby John!

... oh my god, I just had this mental image of Shaw and Livia as a babysitting odd couple. :S Like, preferably while Baby John is pre-verbal, because, honestly, he might be quite traumatised by Livia's rants otherwise.

I definitely would love to read Ben's attempt at prying. He's very decorous about his curiousity (and he's very very curious), and he's actually surprisingly forthcoming about parts of his own past - like, he tells Shaw about Ayasha the very first time they meet! - but he'd definitely recognise Hannibal's need to not talk about it!

AHHH THAT HAD NEVER OCCURRED TO ME AND NOW I WANT IT MORE THAN ANYTHING


RIGHT? All I want in life is Benjamin's beautiful hands on Hannibal's beautiful neck, and Ben being all tender and careful and medical about it while Hannibal is like "dude, decades of tubercolosis didn't manage to kill me, you have nothing to worry about".

[somebraveapollo.livejournal.com]

Excellent point about Ben worrying about everyone, and having abandonment issues - or, rather the-people-you-love-might-be-ripped-away-from-you-at-any-moment issues - which make him, basically, sort people into, yes, those who can and who can't take care of themselves.

He... hmm, he starts out assuming that everyone he loves needs him to be protective. Like, before he even gets to know Olympe, he prays for her soul - - - but when he does meet her, he's ashamed of it, because she is nothing like the lost ~heathen he'd been imagining. And with Rose, it's his recognition of her hard-won autonomy that keeps him from being overprotective, at least at first. (Later, he pretty much automatically considers her an equal partner in adventuring!)

Also, yesssssss about switching into seriousness when Hannibal and MInou are in danger! It's true that they both consciously perform silliness (each for their own reasons) and while Ben is aware that it's partially performance, he is also, like you said, not really able to be awestruck by them. Especially because he cares so much about being taken seriously himself, and only performs silliness when he's roleplaying to fit someone's expectations.

(also, like, it's not even so much about Propriety - Ben definitely cares about being Proper himself but he is okay with Olympe being a most improper voodoo queen and Shaw being a spit-happy scarecrow and Rose being a mad scientist who incites youth to rebellion - it's that he feels very strongly about being professional. Like, his own professionalism is so often doubted, that he kind of... smirky, sometimes, about Minou and Hannibal, because nobody questions Dominique's social skills or Hannibal's musician-prowess the way they do Ben's medical knowledge. But, like, when Minou is moved into a hostile environment, he works really hard to make sure her job as a placee is understood and not derided - and is kind of :\ when Minou points out that people will continue to judge her whatever he says or does about it.)

ETA: And also! When Ben roleplays silliness, he does it to make himself seem less threatening / more easily overlooked. So, hmm, maybe he also semi-subconsciously acknowledges that Minou and Hannibal ENJOY being masked by their quirky/childish mannerisms.

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Yeah, Hannibal can charm anyone. I'm also always sort of surprised that Livia lets him into her house.

It's also interesting the way they both deal with class differences; Ben tends to change his behavior and speech to fit in more with whoever he's currently talking to, while Hannibal just treats everyone exactly the same.

I was really surprised to find out that Shaw had been married! I want to find out all the details on that.

I noticed the poetry thing because I would find it sort of off-putting to have someone quoting poetry about my beauty (particularly if we've just met), so I was surprised to see so many characters who didn't mind. But as long as everyone involved is happy, it's fine!

If I remember correctly, he also doesn't do it to Consuela, which is interesting because I think she would totally be amused by that. Perhaps he just does it off-screen.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

At some point Ben was carrying around the rifle bullet proving otherwise, though I suppose he might have lost it in the whole pirates/boat sinking thing. And also, trying to give Hannibal a bullet without a lot of explanation beforehand would probably just result in "why are you doing this to me I don't want souvenirs of how much I suck ;_;".

I love so much in the short story A Time to Every Purpose Under Heaven that Rose just punches someone in the face. And she's just like, "that's what you get if you try to knee a pregnant lady in the belly".

I looooove that Ben anthropomorphises Rose's rational humanist theology as "the Clockmaker who ran Rose's universe". Do you think those are her words or Ben's?

It does kind of sound more like Ben's world-view than hers. I love that he's so deeply religious and the two people he's closest to couldn't care less about going to church and describe themselves as "heathens". And then there's Olympe, and Livia and Dominique seem more concerned about church as fashion than as spirituality... And poor Ben is always stuck going to early Mass alone.

Hahaha, Shaw and Livia as babysitters! Those two need to hang out together, because it would be terrible but amazing. Like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

I feel like Ben spent the first few months back in New Orleans telling everyone he met all about Ayasha. He tells Hannibal the first time they meet as well (which, to be fair: unusual circumstances), and cries about it with Minou, who he last saw when she was 4. And presumably he tried with Livia, but she does not do comforting so well. He probably told, like, random people selling him pralines about it. He is just a big bucket of emotions.

Yeah, I feel like him trying to pry only works if it's before he's realized how intensely Hannibal avoids the topic. He'd be like, "Hi, new friend~! You know my sister! Do you have a sister? Want to come to my mom's house for dinner? What's your mom like?" But once he's realized, he definitely doesn't press.

THAT IS SO BEAUTIFUL. And reminds me that I also really want there to be Ben/Rose/Hannibal pegging fic. Because Rose would be scientifically curious about what it's like to be the penetrater rather than the penetrate-ee, and Hannibal would be like "I have been living in brothels for years; I know how to make this happen!" And Ben would be like, "...yeah, this is hot."

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Yes, Ben is so protective of everyone. He does have to struggle with realizing that sometimes people need to save themselves (or are perfectly happy with how things are and don't need to be saved at all). Hannibal calls him a "knight errant" a couple of times, which is SO PERFECT. He would save the entire world if he could.

And yeah, it's true he does have a lot of "improper" friends! I think he wants to seem proper himself (though yeah, maybe professional is a better word), but when it comes to a choice between being kind/friendly or being proper, he'd always rather be friendly. He cares about people too much to judge them or worry about his own reputation being besmirched or whatever, especially if it's someone he's close to. I suppose a lot of it's upbringing; Livia is clearly someone who puts a lot of value into doing the 'right' thing and being seen the 'right' way (though right in the respectable sense, not the moral sense).

I think he totally gets what Hannibal and Dominique are doing when they're deliberately not serious. He might roll his eyes at something they say or do, but ultimately he knows what they're capable of: that one quote is so very perfect for this! And January saw—as clearly as if he were watching a play at the American Theater in town—that Dominique's reaction to No would be Oh, very well, p'tit, I'll be on my way back to town then. . . . And Scene Two, Act One would be Dominique, heavily pregnant, poling a pirogue through a swamp somewhere trying to make it to Bois d'Argent herself. And yeah, it does make him sad on their behalves when someone doesn't see through the mask and assumes the first impression is all there is. Such as when everyone in Mexico starts accusing Hannibal of being worthless (including Hannibal himself!) and Ben is like ":( no he is my friend".

Thinking about this, I just realized that Ben is sometimes silly for the fun of it when he's in private, with someone he's close to, but Hannibal and Minou do just the opposite; they are almost always silly in public, and will only say something serious if they're alone with a close friend. Like when Minou is worried about Henri leaving her, but is still showing up at parties acting like a social butterfly, and only showing her troubles in private. Rose is more like Ben in that regard, though she doesn't have the same concern for respectability that he does.