Honest Discussion

[brigdh]

Back in the day, I was on the Prospect-L maillist. Now either, like me, you come from slash fandoms and have your own wonderful or terrible memories associated with those words, or you've never heard of it.

Prospect-L was designed for the in-depth discussion and critique of fanfiction. It wasn't always particularly nice discussion, which is why it earned the nickname of "the mean list", but it was incredibly interesting. I adored analyzing stories and trends within fandom, chatting about writing and reading, about pet peeves and kinks and characterization problems and why things worked when they did and why they didn't when they didn't. It managed to combine a lot of my very favorite things about fandom: that sense of a thoughtful, intelligent community in love with the same topics.

Prospect-L is still around for anyone interested, but unfortunately I'm no longer in The Sentinel fandom, so the discussions don't apply to me the way they once did. There's not really anything to replace it in my current fandoms. Sure, you'll get feedback when you post a fic, and if you're lucky you might even manage to spark a discussion or two about canon interpretation. If you've got a good beta, you might get some wonderful, enlightening conversations from him or her about your fic. But there's not quite the same kind of sustained, detailed talking about either specific fics or general tendencies that I like, and there's certainly no central location where you can go if you want to talk about this type of thing.

So I thought I'd make one. How's that saying go? "If there's something in fandom you want to see, stop complaining and do it yourself". Help me out by answering a few questions, so I can get an idea of what other people would like.

[Poll #608985]

Comments

pert suggestion

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

ficcated actually just came back from the dead, and from what I understand, it's to be the same type of thing. Perhaps the more Minekura-oriented segment of manga fandom could work with the more CLAMP-oriented section (I know there's plenty of fandom crossover, and there are some incredibly intelligent people on the watch list over there), and create one big happy discussion comm?

I think including more fandoms broadens perspectives, though I think having categories within that broadness (e.g. YnM-specific Discussion) is also a good idea.

Re: pert suggestion

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a great link, thank you! I hadn't known this existed, but I'm joining the community.

What I was thinking of was a little different, though. I'd also like for people to be able to say things like "Brigdh's latest fic didn't work for me" rather than just talking about general trends. General tends are good too, of course, but sometimes digging in deep to one specific story can be just as much fun, and create just as much conversation.

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

...in that case I'd change my answer to putting everything under lock, given the Cutting Board comm's FWank fiasco when they did the same thing in the Stargate fandom. In that case, it might be better to limit the pieces considered to specific fandoms (and have politeness/concrit rules made of IRON).

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I was actually just gearing up to answer your comment on this when the post came up on my flist. Prospect-L actually sprang from a group of us on the FCA-L discussion list deciding we should take all our Sentinel-oriented discussions to a Sentinel-oriented list. The FCA-L (FCA stands for Fanfiction Critics Association, we're also the people behind ffsymposium) is still around and I'm still on it, and it welcomes fandoms across the board. I can get you the yahoogroups link if you're interested.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

FCA-L is still active? I thought it was a legendary thing that had long since gone moribund.

Part of me thinks, I should join immediately! And the other part mutters unhappily, You know better. It's a yahoogroups link, and to join anything on yahoogroups is to ensure that the relevant email address will be flooded with spam, so you'll wind up only looking at that mail on the web, and you won't see it until days later, and what's even the point?

(It's a remarkable phenomenon, really. Every email address that I've ever used for anything on yahoo has been ruined by spam volume. No email address that I have kept away from yahoo has ever had a spam problem at all. I sometimes wonder if we could eliminate the problem as a whole if the entire world suddenly went off yahoo for good -- not that this is a practical solution.)

And I suppose I've just answered my own dithering about comm versus ml.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

You already know what I think, but I'll fill out the poll anyway, for formality's sake. I'm adding a comment as well because I do like the ml format because of the way every comment goes to every participant -- but as I just whimpered below, is there any alternative to using yahoo for a ml these days? Because the spam that results from allowing yahoo to have any email address is more than I've been able to deal with in the past.

I'd so join, whatever the format. And I wouldn't even whine if the group decided to talk about what's wrong with stuff I've written. How's that for an anti-wank pledge?

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I was actually just gearing up to answer your comment on this when the post came up on my flist.

Heh, don't tell me things like that. I'd already put off making this post for a few days, I don't need more excuses to procrastinate.

You were involved in creating Prospect-L? I'm so much more in awe of you than I already was. *grins* Did you use a different pen name then? I'm surprised I don't remember you.

And sure, I want the link.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

It's a remarkable phenomenon, really. Every email address that I've ever used for anything on yahoo has been ruined by spam volume. No email address that I have kept away from yahoo has ever had a spam problem at all. I sometimes wonder if we could eliminate the problem as a whole if the entire world suddenly went off yahoo for good -- not that this is a practical solution.

Really? You know, it's funny you say that, because Yahoo has actually been remarkably good to me concerning spam. As I'm sure you know, my email address is on Yahoo, but the fun part is that that same address is the one I've had ever since I first got the internet, over 7 years ago now. I'm currently on something like 50 yahoo mls (though most are completly inactive or I have the individual email function turned off). Every other address I've had tends to get buried under the spam count after much smaller amounts of time. But yahoo? Still going strong. Even the spam I do get automatically gets caught by the filter, so I actually see spam only once or twice a week. My school email account, for comparison, gets between five and ten pieces a day.

[lynndyre.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I think it would be interesting to be able to discuss YnM fic in depth, and with reference to specifics that work or don't work, but on the other hand, I don't know how many people I would trust to speak that honestly with.

There are people I know in a couple of different fandoms who write things that just don't work with the characters, but who might not be able to handle targeted criticism because of the amount of themselves that goes into their work. (not any single person specifically)

I suppose the point of all of this is that I'm not sure-- it would depend on the tone of whatever evolved.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thinking it's going to be pretty much impossible to avoid all wank; I'll just try to minimize it as much as I can.

The rules will be very important. I'm planning on stealing a bunch of ideas from Prospect-L and similiar lists, but the most important one is an idea that should be much more common throughout fandom than it is: say whatever you want about the story and the writing, but no comments allowed on the author as a person.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Hey, the more people fill out the form, the better. Besides, it'll make it easier for me to compare numbers.

is there any alternative to using yahoo for a ml these days?

Not that I know of. I remember that Yahoo bought out the last big ml site (I cannot remember the name of it right now, and it's killing me, but it probaably doesn't really matter) several years ago, which pissed off a lot of people at the time, but no alternative ever came up to confront Yahoo. At the moment, LJ community is beating out ml by a 10-0 lead.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

There are people I know in a couple of different fandoms who write things that just don't work with the characters, but who might not be able to handle targeted criticism because of the amount of themselves that goes into their work. (not any single person specifically)

I think there are always going to be people like that around (and it's from them, of course, that Prospect-L itself became known as the mean list), but I don't think it does anyone any good to stifle discussion for the sake of possibly hurt feelings, particularly with a group well-enough moderated to make sure that any discussion stays on the writing itself and not the actual author. Though I don't think it's reasonable to hold fandom to the standards of published literary criticism, I don't think we're incapable of any type of critique at all, either.

And anyway, it's almost certainly going to take place in a locked LJ community, which means no one has to see critism of their own works if they don't want to. Unless they're a member, I guess, but I'd hope anyone who participates in discussions of others' works could handle becoming the focus (though maybe that is overly optimistic).

Like I've been saying, it's not going to surprise me any if this does end up leading to some wank or misunderstandings. I just think that it's very possible the potential good could outweigh the bad.

[cyne-dias.livejournal.com]

Re: fandoms: I got braindead when filling out the poll, and must've misunderstood the question to be which series do you think is most shiny? Tick the box! So I really should have ticked the all animanga fic option. Either that, or just a specific fandom.

I guess it depends on how big the comm would be and which people are going to join and where they are coming from. Gen vs specific, or maybe an all-around fic crit comm... I'd join whichever. More intelligent discussion (whether you're a participant or just a reader) is always a good thing.

[solo.livejournal.com]

X/1999?

I'd join, see what it's like, and then decide whether I want to stay on. :-)

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. I knew I was going to forget some fandoms. But then I started to run out of room, so I figured I'd gotten close enough. *laughs*

And hey, that's a plan!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

*laughs* No, it's good. I mean, I even if I wanted to talk about every fandom up there, that doesn't mean I neccessarily want to talk about every animanga fandom in existence. Just the shiny ones. *grins*

Yeah, a lot of it will depend on how the group itself develops. There's only so much you can do with rules.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

Here from Metafandom, and I'm not into anime at all (well, aside from Ranma 1/2, but only to watch. Okay, and Lupin the III). A fanfic discussion community was created this summer for Stargate: Atlantis stories. Since I love to talk about stories - good and bad points - I'd love to see the practice expand and become more normal across all fandoms.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

I think it sounds like a great idea. There can never be enough meta. I've just got into YnM and am poking around the corners of the fandom, and it would be nice to find out where all the meta is. I also think that the comm (wherever it is) should have some guidelines, and reminders not to have any ad hominem attacks, etc.

[merryish.livejournal.com]

erm... well, actually...

It was actually an outgrowth of dissatisfaction on the part of a large group of Senad members (Senad being the biggest slash sentinel list at the time) with the rules of the list, the way the moderator(s) chose to apply the rules, and the resulting atmosphere in the slash side of the fandom. Margie and I really created it as a gesture of protest more than anything else; we didn't have any idea that more than a few of our friends would ever join it, certainly not that hundreds would.

The couple-thousand posts in the first few days of the list wised us up really fast.

[(Anonymous)]

Prospect-L actually sprang from a group of us on the FCA-L discussion list deciding we should take all our Sentinel-oriented discussions to a Sentinel-oriented list.

Close, but no cigar. :) There were only two people behind Prospect-L's creation: Merry and me. And while both of us were on FCA at the time -- and I've been on it consistently since Lucy first started it up -- we never discussed it beforehand there. Lucy and Justine (the admins on FCA) are good friends of ours, but they had nothing to do with its creation, other than cheering us on.

FCA was a completely separate thing, although several regulars on FCA joined PL as a list that would be suited to them. PL was strictly an offshoot of Senad, when Senad's rules became too restrictive for us to take any longer. We wanted the fandom to have a different environment for talking about stories.

The first time anyone on FCA heard about PL was when I announced it there, after Merry and I created it.

- Margie

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Small timeline clarification and other ;).

The Symposium (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/) started waaaaay back in 1999, on accounta I wanted an essay site. The LJ community ffsymposium was formed about a year ago when I gave up trying to recreate the message board from scratch.

The Fanfiction Critics Association started around late 1999, almost as a joke from my "biography" on the Symposium. [Unknown site tag] was an early adopter of the cause ;). sanj and I thought, hey, a mailing list sounded cool, hence, FCA-L. It's still around, although only sporadically active.

merryish and Margie formed Prospect-L shortly thereafter independently, which I know on accounta I was there ;).

[(Anonymous)]

A friend pointed me here, and I just wanted to say thanks for the mention and the kind words about PL! I cracked up at the "wonderful or terrible memories" -- man, so true. *g*

But there's not quite the same kind of sustained, detailed talking about either specific fics or general tendencies that I like, and there's certainly no central location where you can go if you want to talk about this type of thing.

I have to admit, I miss this sort of thing terribly. Those conversations were/are the backbone of fandom for me, and they simply haven't existed in the areas where I hang out in several years now, at least not on anything remotely approaching the consistent basis they used to have. Even in fandoms that have active or semi-active lists (my preferred fannish communications method), the traffic is largely just blather.

I hope you find a way to recreate it!

- Margie

[(Anonymous)]

Merry (merryish) and I created Prospect-L. :)

- Margie

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think I remember it that way because that's why I and a few people of my acquaintance joined, and I remember so many of the vocal members of P-L coming from the FCA-L and continuing discussions from one to the other. Now that you've mentioned it, I remember the issues with Senad coming up, but I wasn't on Senad, so I don't think they stuck in my head. Sorry to have confused things. *G*

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I remember you and Merry from the FCA-L, and I remember a few (joking) comments on the list from those of us in The Sentinel fandom, every time a discussion got too TS-centric, that we should really get another list, a fandom-specific list, for these kinds of discussions. When P-L was created and the announcement made onlist, it seemed such a perfect answer to those comments that I remembered the one corresponding to the other when it's clear they didn't.

The two lists did have a very similar flavor, though, to my mind, perhaps because so many of the posters were the same.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I was only involved in the creation if you count joining as soon as the list announcement was made. *G* And I used Rana, but you'd have to have been on the list prior to 2003 to catch me.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I remember the beginning of the Symposium, though I had forgotten it came before the FCA. I remembered it came before the FCA-L, though.

I was there when Prospect-L formed (and when FCA-L formed), I just hadn't remembered the reasoning for the creation of Prospect-L. Since I had never been on Senad, and only interacted with other TS fen through the FCA-L, the jokes about "getting our own list" stuck in my head as the reason for the creation of P-L. P-L certainly answered the need, even if that's not why it was formed.

Here via metafandom

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I started a similar comm a few months ago, fanfic_chat, but aside from one post I made myself, there's only been one other post. I had originally meant to try and post a couple times a month, but I haven't had time to read much fic, nothing I thought had much to discuss about it anyway... And the fact that the comm is multifandom hurts it because the members haven't all read the same stuff. :-/ Good luck with yours if you start one. I'd join, but I don't read anime fic.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's interesting; I hadn't known about it. How's it working out? Do you have a lot of discussion?

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Hello! Heh, this is coincidental. Um, before I look like a creepy stalker, this is Brigdh.

I also think that the comm (wherever it is) should have some guidelines, and reminders not to have any ad hominem attacks, etc.

Oh, yes. How I word the rules will be very important.

I've just got into YnM and am poking around the corners of the fandom, and it would be nice to find out where all the meta is.

Unfortunately, there isn't really too much meta around for YnM. You could try reading the memories of ship_manifesto and reflections_2 for essays on various characters and pairings, and yami_backstory has had some nice discussions. There's the apologeia essay (http://phantom.bleeding-moon.net/unapologetic.html) for Hisoka, and rinoared's site (http://www.rautalanka.net/rinoa/) has some nice essays too. You've probably seen some of these already, but those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, I miss this sort of thing terribly. Those conversations were/are the backbone of fandom for me, and they simply haven't existed in the areas where I hang out in several years now, at least not on anything remotely approaching the consistent basis they used to have. Even in fandoms that have active or semi-active lists (my preferred fannish communications method), the traffic is largely just blather.

I really miss the ml format, too. LJ has its own benefits, but I think the sort of active, large-scale discussion that was my favorite part of fandom just doesn't seem to be supported by LJ.

I hope you find a way to recreate it!

Me too.

Re: Here via metafandom

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link! I love the chance to see how different people have approached this issue and how it's working for them (and what rules they used, because I'd like to try to avoid too much wank, heh).

Sorry that yours hasn't been too active. I hope it picks up!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

I was. My height of involvement was around 2000-2001, which means I've probably just forgotten entirely. Heh.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Well, as you can see, my memory is horrible, so I don't hold it against anyone if they don't remember me. *G*

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I'm here via metafandom, and although I'm not involved in any of the fandoms you list in your poll, I'd like to point out that there are discussion groups for other fandoms. I helped start hp_fictalk for Harry Potter fic discussion, and although it has waxed and waned in terms of traffic, it's always been a polite and interesting place.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

The comm is thecuttingboard - at first we had a lot of discussion, then an author of a story we discussed posted something that seemed to indicate she was uneasy with the concept and its been quiet since then. I wrote a review of a story I adored last week, and I'm hoping others will follow suit now that some time has passed.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

Hi! You sure I'm not the creepy stalker? ;) Oh, and thanks for the great beta. I'm incorporating your suggestions, and should send the fic back to you this weekend. I'd love to talk about it with you some more, if you're not getting tired of it. Hell, *I'm* starting to get sick of the fic.

Looking over this post again, I want to clarify how I voted. I originally chose lj, because I'm most comfortable in the milieu, but ML or forums are more condusive to sustaining a general discussion. Have you thought about posting board forums? Some of them can give you an email alert when someone new posts. I'm throwing ideas out so--rules for the discussers pertaining to fic crit, rules for the author, and maybe contacting the author to alert them to the discussion. Personally, I think it's a huge compliment to have fics discussed like that, even if it's just about, 'why it didn't work, and omg the flaws!'. But YMMV, and I remember the SG:A kerfuffle. I chose some fandoms I recognized, but I'd prefer the comm be based on one fandom, YnM, so we could all read and discuss the same things, and maybe gradually expand it to other fandoms. Then again, I don't know YnM fandom very well, and don't know if it's big enough or inclined to support such a comm.

Thanks for the links! I've come across some of them, but not all.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

Thank you! As I was telling someone else, I really appreciate getting these links to the different fic discussion groups. It's very helpful to compare, to see what things work and what don't, and see what rules are the most necessary. So thanks for the link!

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

(Icon!love! Mahjong!)

Yeah, I see how that could be a problem. People are often very sensative to hurting others' feelings. Good luck on bringing talk back, though!

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not terribly active, but it's still around. And I think everybody should join, just because when discussion does happen, it's still usually darn interesting in all kinds of ways.

Do you have a gmail account? I have the one I use for LJ and my Yahoo mls, and I've had no problems with spam. I have had problems with messages arriving on time or at all, though. Which is one reason I prefer comms and LJ interaction.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

I do have a gmail account, and given your and Brigdh's lack of an instant spam problem related to Yahoo, I think it's worth creating a new one, signing it up, and seeing what happens.

I also wonder if there was some option I missed on the previous occasions when I signed onto Yahoo-based mailing lists that would have protected me, because Yahoo is the only difference between the accounts I have that get no spam and those that are swamped with it. Or maybe there's some such option that becomes available when you finally crack and set up a Yahoo account: something I have steadfastly refused to do because reading their disclosure invariably makes me so angry that I bail from the process before it's complete.

And you know, I'm actually a serene, cheerful, and patient person in RL. Notably so. Why must I be so peevish online? -- I ask myself that question regularly, and I never have come up with a good answer.

[wordsofastory.livejournal.com]

And you know, I'm actually a serene, cheerful, and patient person in RL. Notably so. Why must I be so peevish online? -- I ask myself that question regularly, and I never have come up with a good answer.

I don't think you come off as peevish at all. Complaining about spam is the new "the weather's nice today" staple of small talk in the modern world, after all. As long as you don't start thinking that the Nigerian bankers have singled you out from everyone else (ah, the depths of paranoia to which the letter writers of 'Dear Abby' can sink), you're doing just fine.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

You do need a Yahoo ID, I think, to sign up with any Yahoogroups mls, but I don't recall any option that might have made a difference in the spam. Weirdly, I tend to get a lot of spam to the gmail account which is not signed up on any mls, but I have yet to get even a single piece at the account signed up to all the fannish mls (most of them set to "web only").

I'm more talkative online, but I'm just as blunt in person.